#WFU Episode 11:

In this episode, we welcome a very special guest to talk about her journey with hard convos:

00:00:00 - Intro

04:00 - Preparing for challenges in new places

04:46 - A funny identity mix-up

06:43 - Misjudging customer assumptions

07:32 - The cost of avoiding hard conversations

12:25 - Learning to manage compassionately

19:02 - Action-Impact-Do feedback framework

20:16 - Navigating feedback to superiors

23:11 - Balancing respect and accountability

24:38 - Setting boundaries with difficult peers

27:08 - Standing up for yourself

29:39 - Building confidence in tough moments

32:26 - Addressing disrespect head-on

37:01 - Data-driven conversations

38:28 - Feedback is a gift

And hey, we want to hear from you! What topics do you want us to tackle next? Reach out and let us know. Remember, we’re here to share how We Fucked Up So You Don’t Have To.

Reach out to Melanie: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melanie-faye/

Reach out to Stino: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stijn-smet-%F0%9F%90%B3-330435a9/

Reach out to Elodie: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elodieorourke/

[Stino] (0:00 - 0:21)

But that was also the moment where I learned to say like, hey, I know my worth. This was so uncalled for. I'm calling my Uber.

I'm transferring your account. You're doing amazing with our product, but this relationship is not going to happen. So in that sense, it takes balls to stand up to your customers.

[Voiceover] (0:25 - 1:06)

Welcome to another exciting episode of We Fucked Up So You Don't Have To. Get ready to dive into the wild world of customer success with your hosts, Stino and Melanie. Join them as they peel back the curtain on their own mishaps and triumphs, sharing candid insights and practical advice along the way.

Steno, a charismatic head of customer success, brings his unfiltered wisdom to the table, while Melanie, the seasoned customer success manager, offers invaluable career insights. Together, they'll laugh, learn, and navigate the twists and turns of the customer success journey. So buckle up and let's dive in.

[Stino] (1:11 - 1:59)

Hi, everyone, and welcome to yet another episode of the We Fucked Up So You Don't Have To show. Our last episode was Menage a Trois, and for this one, we also just wanted to bring another one into our relationship between me and Melanie. We have found the most perfect guest.

She's the only one that I know that can pull off bangs this strong. She is insane. If I talk about insanity, she is insane.

She has this big, beautiful brain with all this knowledge that she wants to share with the entire community. She helped me in growing into a leadership role as well. Her advice is straight up unfiltered.

So that's why we invited Elodie O'Rourke into the We Fucked Up podcast. Hi, Elodie.

[Elodie] (2:00 - 2:08)

Hey, hi, everyone. Thanks for having me again, because I think we actually fucked up the first episode of this podcast.

[Stino] (2:10 - 2:30)

True, we were basically laying the foundation in my other podcast about talking about fuck-ups. So we had so much fun. So why not bring in again to this podcast to talk about a little bit more into fuck-ups.

Awesome. For people who don't know you, one, shame on you if they don't know you. But for people that don't know you, what are you all about?

[Elodie] (2:31 - 4:00)

Yeah, well, so I'm Elodie. I was born a fairly long time ago now in south of France. And then I reinvented myself several times because I changed country twice already.

So I've been living in the UK for almost 10 years. And then it's been three years that I'm living in Amsterdam in the beautiful Netherlands trying to speak Dutch. It's hoping for another day, another fuck-up, by the way.

So that's me. I've been working in CS for nine years now. And I actually did my entire career in customer success at the Financial Times, which is another ODT as well, because no one is really expecting a newspaper having a CS in, but here we are.

And I moved into different roles up to the current one, which is global customer success director for our B2B division, which is called FT Professional. So that's me. But also I have another obsession, I would say.

It's more about diversity and inclusion. So I'm very much engaged in our D&I stuff of DFT. So I've been part of our FT Access because I'm actually an experienced disability consultant.

That was one of my last job in France. And I transitioned to caregivers because I had the opportunity, let's say the chance, sometimes the curse. It depends what time you are in the day and in which state they are.

But I have two kids, so now I'm a mother as well. So yeah, that's cool. But yeah, in a nutshell, that's me.

[Stino] (4:00 - 4:16)

Well, before we go into the topic of today, I'm leaving for London tomorrow. And it's the first time that I'm driving up to London. Like, any tips?

Because you went from France to UK, back to the Netherlands, that the steering wheel is on the left, but we're driving in the UK before we go.

[Elodie] (4:16 - 4:31)

I have to say that I was so... Yeah, just look both sides and then follow the other cars. Copy what everyone else is doing.

Yeah, I have to say, I never drove in the UK because of that. So it was like, yeah.

[Stino] (4:32 - 4:33)

I'm so scared.

[Elodie] (4:34 - 4:36)

You're going to be fine. You have to be positive.

[Stino] (4:36 - 4:43)

UK edition. Well, maybe, guys, this is my last episode. So we will go out with a bang.

[Elodie] (4:44 - 4:45)

I would be so blessed.

[Stino] (4:46 - 4:51)

So what kind of fuck-ups did we bring to the table today?

[Elodie] (4:52 - 6:43)

So, yeah, I think this one is very short, but too funny not to share. Unfortunately, I can't give the name because obviously it's confidential. It was one of my customers.

But I had this key account I was working on. And then I managed to get in touch through their executive assistant, this very VIP end user on my key account. And then the whole time I was engaging with that person because he was talking to me directly, I assumed that he was Japanese.

Sorry, I'm already laughing because his name was very Japanese sounding. And just to defend myself, I wasn't the only one thinking about this because my sales counterpart working on the same account with me assumed the same because he was very Japanese sounding name. And he was one of those accounts where they have a very diverse and cosmopolitan workforce.

So he was absolutely, totally possible. And then I managed to actually meet in person. And I was trying to prepare like a bit of an icebreaker stuff.

And so I published a bit of my Japanese culture stuff. And then he arrived and turns out he was from Nigeria. So imagine the shock.

It was all the opposite of how you picture Japanese people. And then the whole time I was like, try not to laugh, right? Because the whole time we were thinking that's exciting.

Let's talk about Japan. And I'm like, what the fuck? I was like, you're from Japan.

Anyway, so yeah, sometimes too much preparation doesn't help either, especially if you make stupid assumption. And I have to say for my defense, he didn't have any picture on this LinkedIn profile. And I should have scrolled down because he was a very experienced person.

And I would have find out he was actually coming from Nigeria.

[Stino] (6:43 - 6:45)

That is so true.

[Elodie] (6:45 - 6:49)

Do this scroll down, you know, do it, do it. I mean, two seconds and then, yeah.

[Stino] (6:49 - 7:01)

Oh, I remember a story as well, where you see a name, whenever you have an account handover, you see a name and you like have this entire, like you really picture that person and how he's going to look like or how he's going to sound like.

[Elodie] (7:02 - 7:03)

It was a shock.

[Stino] (7:04 - 7:05)

And whenever you get on the call.

[Elodie] (7:06 - 7:14)

If you go out, you're very drunk, you come back home with someone and then you wake up, you're like, wow, I was picturing someone else. The same.

[Stino] (7:15 - 7:25)

That is a 100%. That's why indeed nightclubs install those bright lights at the exits. Because when you're taking someone home, they give you the opportunity to look at someone.

[Elodie] (7:25 - 7:26)

Yeah. Are you sure?

[Stino] (7:26 - 7:29)

And are you sure taking that one home?

[Elodie] (7:29 - 7:30)

Yeah, exactly.

[Stino] (7:32 - 7:32)

No, I love that.

[Elodie] (7:32 - 8:33)

That was really the individual contributor fuck up that I can think of on top of my head. But the actual fuck up I wanted to talk about today, it's more about which is applicable to anyone in any situation technically. But when you delay those difficult conversations and because I'm lucky enough to work in a British company and I don't know if you're very familiar with the British culture, they are not too much into saying the truth bluntly or having like confrontations and such things.

It's not in their culture. I'm not saying that all British people do those things. In that working situation, by the way, it took me a couple of years to understand, for instance, when my boss was telling me, and not this boss now, but, oh, that's very interesting.

Actually, it means I don't give a damn. The subtitle is very British. So you have to read between lines and understand, which was very awkward for me in the first place, first of all, because I'm French, which is not...

[Stino] (8:34 - 8:38)

You guys are direct, like French culture is.

[Elodie] (8:38 - 12:25)

We are Latin. It's a Latin culture. And on top of that, I'm coming from south of France, which is even more Latin.

So people, they shout, they scream, they tell everything they want to tell you all the time, which can be overwhelming. Sometimes even when I go, I'm like, okay, bye. See you later next year.

But yeah, anyway, so I have this specific example, actually, as a people manager, which was that you have this person and you like them very much because they've been working with you for a long time. And initially, when you have this honeymoon time, when you're hiring someone, everybody's happy, everybody's fantastic, everything is perfect, or at least you think it is. And then suddenly, because also I'm not like, that's one of my weaknesses that I have to say sometimes is that I'm not a detail person, details is boring to me.

So when it comes to finance, imagine how fun it is for me. But I mean, I'm not a detail-oriented person. So the good thing is that I can have this holistic view, think about strategy and stuff.

But when it comes to going to the nitty gritty, in the logs, I'm not like that. And I was always dreading to do it. Because I'm very distracted myself and a bit of a chaotic person.

Once we were talking about life, death, everything. And then at some point, I was like, that's not great, because I'm paid to do a job, which is actually managing that person. And I need to see that.

And then suddenly you can see, oh, actually, this is not so great. This is not so great. And then you're like, okay, is it because I didn't do my job like I was supposed to do in the first place, like more diligently looking at this or la la la.

And then you're like, okay, well. And then you talk to the person and say, oh, I've noticed the system is not so great. And they're like, yeah, but you know my cat last night.

And I don't know anymore. Oh, yeah, I understand. I love cats.

Okay, that's fine. Like, fair enough. And then you assume, because for me, if my boss is giving me only like the smallest hint that I'm not meeting their expectation, I will freak out, be anxious for three weeks, just like work twice as hard as I'm working.

I'm already working hard. But not everybody is like this. Some people say, okay, they don't care.

So they keep doing or not doing what they're supposed to do. And then you're like, but their cat was sick last night. Oh, yeah, but things happen in their life.

But of course, they had food poisoning last week. And then suddenly the snowball effect. And then you start hearing conversations or people come to you or feedback like, have you noticed this person?

And then you end up being in this, pardon my French, but shitty situation. Basically, you have to extinguish fire everywhere. And the more you look into it, the more you see that actually the work is not there or like the quality is not there.

And everybody's unhappy with that person. But you, because you are like, oh, poor them cats and poisoning and whatever. All these excuses.

It happened to me as a people manager. And then suddenly you have to rewind and basically say, okay, and recognize that it's also your responsibility, right? So it's also your fault.

Because if you haven't delayed that tricky conversation in the first place, and instead of saying, oh, yeah, poor them, their cat, whatever it is. But then you actually say, okay, I hear you.

[Stino] (12:25 - 12:26)

But.

[Elodie] (12:26 - 12:32)

It's very sad. Your cat was sick last night or whatever. But poor cat.

I mean, seriously.

[Stino] (12:33 - 12:34)

As a cat daddy, I can't relate.

[Elodie] (12:36 - 13:08)

Where is the cat now? Especially when you're a new people manager, it's not like you want to be a people pleaser specifically, but you also want to be seen as a supportive manager. Not someone who would be there only with the stick and not the carrot.

But then you end up being in this situation where basically you have to rewind and then do the very boring thing to actually list all the things that the person are not doing properly, how they should be doing it. And then on top of that, it happened to me that the person literally burst into tears.

[Stino] (13:09 - 13:09)

Oh God.

[Elodie] (13:09 - 13:23)

Why you didn't tell me earlier? And then I was like, well, when I pointed this and then say, yeah, but my cat was sick. And then you're like, yeah, but at the end of the day, you're like, okay, we are a business.

[Stino] (13:24 - 14:33)

That's it. I think that there's where you hit a nail on the head. We're still at the business at the end.

And I can totally relate. The first person that I managed ever, I made her cry as well because I had the same approach. I was like, dear, dear.

I was a little bit too supportive. And then I went to the other end. I don't know if you know that meme, but it's like a person that is throwing up in the toilet.

And then there was a person with a broom from the other room controlling that person. Dear, dear. To be like, the gap of support is too big.

So yeah, it's a really hard balance to find. But going into like culture first, what I love is indeed that it's different from different parts of the world, right? Because indeed, French, I do know it's even like south.

But if you're in Paris, it's even worse. That is like straight up, that's there. I know the States is also a little bit more like, but then you have the friendliest country in the world.

And we have someone of the friendliest country in the world. And that's Canada. So Melanie, I'm dying to know your take.

Like how do Canadians do difficult conversation?

[Melanie] (14:34 - 15:47)

This whole time I've been sitting here thinking, oh gosh, Canada. Because we, I think we're just overly polite. Like everything is, you've probably seen those jokes, right?

Where it's like Canadians will say sorry 10 times before they, even if it's not their fault, right? I'm so sorry. We always apologize.

I would much rather know in advance, not in a mean way, but like if something is bothering them or if they're seeing something that I'm doing that they'd like to correct, don't shoot the shit with me. Like I'd rather know, like I don't wanna have my one-on-one and talk about your life or how things are going generally. Like just tell me how I'm doing because otherwise things become a surprise on that one-year review or like suddenly there's a list of stuff that you're doing wrong.

I can totally see why you did that though because I would probably approach things the same way. I think it's really hard to get past the trying to have a friendly conversation and make people comfortable and then get to the point where you're actually giving feedback. Yeah, that's something I still struggle with, giving feedback and like taking feedback is one thing, but giving it to someone and doing it in a way that doesn't upset them, doesn't make them cry.

You have to know their personality a little bit and then deliver it.

[Stino] (15:48 - 16:01)

Yeah, I do think so. Elodie, what's your take? I do love the fact that Melanie said like you need to know the person sitting in front of you.

Is that something to take into account when delivering difficult messages from a people manager's point of view?

[Elodie] (16:01 - 17:06)

Yeah, I think especially I'm blessed to be working in a very global team. So with people literally based in many different countries. So you have to, as you said, Melanie, you have to know also the character of the person because the country is one thing, but some people even in France, they don't like when you are too blunt or too direct and that's okay.

You have to understand that. But when it comes to feedback though, and because we are not talking to our friends or family and you can be the worst person with your family and friends because who cares? I mean, people care, that's another story, right?

But at work, you have to be, you have to deliver whatever are your objectives. First of all, you can't just do whatever you want to do, both ways, right? So you can't just be a tyrant or a bully, people harass them or whatever nasty you can imagine as a people manager because unfortunately this happens sometimes, not with me, I hope, please, my team.

[Stino] (17:06 - 17:10)

People that are listening in this podcast. She is lying.

[Elodie] (17:12 - 19:02)

And they will comment like, but also I think it's this specific experience, he was in my first years of managing people, so you're also learning and that's exactly like, even if the comparison is a bit crappy, it's a bit like you are not born a parent or a manager or a customer success manager, it's a learning curve. You have to learn how to do it and now, well, maybe it's the other way around, I would rather say things out loud straight away, but what I'm doing actually, because I don't want to hurt people's feelings and so first of all, I did some training to learn how to deliver feedback efficiently and also to realize that what I don't like to do is to give the sandwich methods, where you're so amazing but you suck and on this, I think it's horrible because it's confusing, like there are times to give positive feedback and say, awesome, what you did there, it was amazing, but when it comes to constructive feedback, I think it's best to only focus on that and what I'm doing usually, either I'm using my usual one-to-one slots or I would book a specific meeting depending on the seriousness of the feedback you have to deliver, right? But what I'm doing, I prepare the session in the first place, so I don't read the script unless the stakes are high because I had some instances with big HR problems, not because of me, but because of the people, but I'm using the ED model, which is action, impact and do, so you start by just, so first of all, it helps to remove all emotions and to focus on the facts and to only talk about facts, like I've noticed that during this presentation, you kept cursing all the time in front of our senior management.

[Stino] (19:02 - 19:03)

That sounds like me.

[Elodie] (19:05 - 19:42)

Imagine, and then you would say the impact is that although you can be perceived as friendly in front of senior manager, he can be seen as rude and he would impact your credibility basically with this specific group of people and then you will open the conversation and say, what would you do next time? That type of thing and honestly helps and also what I'm doing afterwards, I always send a follow-up email because the first natural reaction when you're getting constructive feedback inside is to scream, shout, cry and then say F you.

[Stino] (19:43 - 19:45)

You can swear, say it out loud.

[Elodie] (19:46 - 20:15)

Yeah, you can say, yeah, fuck you and then that's the normal epidemic reaction, right? So at least the person have time to think about it and then you obviously announce, I'm going to send a follow-up email just to summarize this conversation. That's easy with your direct report but imagine when you have a peer or even worse, your boss.

Sometimes you have to deliver feedback to your boss. That's a difficult run, right?

[Stino] (20:16 - 20:24)

Melanie, we're both managers. You're an individual contributor. Do you have any experience where you need to do the difficult conversation?

Like upwards?

[Melanie] (20:25 - 21:28)

Yes, so that's kind of interesting because in previous roles, we've had like surveys that we filled out so that you didn't have to verbally deliver it. So on the one hand, there was a survey for how I like to receive feedback which I thought was great. So we would like when it came time for reviews or conversations, they had that document in front of them.

This is how I like to get feedback and then it had some other questions where I could be specific about sort of my personality traits but then yeah, delivering feedback to a manager, I have a really, really hard time with that. So having a survey for that side too where maybe you can just submit it and then talk about it later rather than being put on the spot or seeing someone get defensive when you report to them, that's the worst feeling for me. I tiptoe around things or I'll just ignore it altogether because I don't want them thinking that I don't like working with them or I have a problem with them.

I will just avoid it. So if I have a way to just submit it in advance, they can see it, they can think about it, then we can have a conversation about it.

[Stino] (21:29 - 22:48)

Yeah, there is a thing about like being in a position of power, right? Like needed to give feedback on someone who is like on the hierarchy above you. I think that is really like the most scariest thing to have but that's also the thing like as a people manager, I ask it all the time, like give me feedback because I think it's important for me also to learn from their feedback and sometimes they are not straight up and I'm like, why?

Like it's totally fine, give your feedback. So in that sense, yeah, maybe it's indeed like from a management point of view, I do love the fact that you want to maybe also ask your team on how they want to provide feedback to you because I always put them on the spot because I would have a one-to-one with someone and do start, stop, continue. Basically like what do you want to start?

What are you stop doing and what do you want to continue doing? That works really well for my team but indeed I put them on the spot and I'm always ending the one-to-one with, so what can I change? Do you have any feedback for me?

So in that sense, they never answer because they are always like a little bit startled. So maybe indeed like having, giving them the opportunity to voice their feedback way beforehand and not putting them on the spot is maybe indeed a little bit more comfortable thing to do.

[Melanie] (22:48 - 23:09)

I think it depends on your relationship too. If you're very like business and all you do is talk about how you perform in your role and you don't have a relationship really outside of like there's no personal conversations, that kind of thing, that's particularly hard and especially if you see someone as defensive with feedback from another colleague, you kind of shut down, right?

[Elodie] (23:11 - 24:37)

Yeah, I think the key in those three key because you would work with customers as well. We all had those very interesting customers to work with and then you have this relationship of oh what if they fired me as their provider and then my boss would be either first of all you would lose a customer and then you will have a very difficult conversation probably with your boss. But I think the key is to think about the consequences like if it's, whatever is happening is impacting you as an individual in this setting either because they are your customers.

I do remember once, just to give you another example, it wasn't a customer, I was an individual contributor and my sales counterpart, also a French person, was very direct and straightforward and a bit bossy and then at some point after a few weeks I had enough because I mean I don't like bossy people but don't boss me around if I'm not a subordinate, right? So and then I do remember once because the person we were sitting next to each other they sent me a message but very short like do kind of do this. And first of all I was like why don't you talk to me?

I'm literally like sitting like one centimeter away from you in the first place like am I so scary? And then I just replied like I will do it when you change your tone.

[Stino] (24:38 - 24:40)

That is a way to go.

[Elodie] (24:40 - 27:07)

I said I would be more than happy to do it but when you would change your tone and then I think maybe it's the same sometimes I had in other companies settings where you have like customers that are definitely rude to you and then I was always telling my team actually you shouldn't accept that. So it's not because they are our customer they can do whatever they want so they have to be respectful and if you are not it's your right to say listen I don't accept this way of being talked to so either you change the way you speak to me or I will end this conversation now and that's respectful and okay you can do that and I think it's the same in any situation. I had once an extremely toxic manager a long time ago and that was the king of gaslighting.

The person was telling me oh please ensure your team don't come to me to complain about xyz and then he was going behind my back talking to my team if she does anything you don't like let me know of course I'm going to do things they don't like I'm their manager I'm here to manage my little portion of the business right and then he was like they keep talking to me they keep coming to me and at some point I could see he was doing all of this and honestly the day I gave my resignation I said by the way I'm gonna resign and just so you know because he kept telling me I'm not working hard enough I thought I was counting my hours and then I because I'm very French and in France it's very bureaucratic I was actually compiling even forwarded all evidence that I had on my private computer stuff like that and then say so now I'm asking you to give me a little money package so I can actually recover from this very toxic relationship we had for the past x and a and then he was so scared because I had all the evidence and stuff he just gave me the money and I was like thank you bye go away and I was like I'm sorry but honestly that's my learning curve like the more you delay those tricky conversations think about the consequences because if you let's say a customer talking to you like you're a piece of garbage then they will think it's okay to do that and they will do that and it's the same with your peers even your manager if you feel they're not treating you fairly

[Stino] (27:08 - 29:38)

yeah but to that extent I do I feel sometimes like it's been easier for me as well not all the time and I fucked up numerous times delivering feedback or having those difficult conversations I made people cry I even cried when delivering difficult news which is totally insane because that person was perfectly fine and I was like sobbing and be like but that's a story for another time but that's the thing though having those difficult conversations and I want like everyone take on this one as well like how do you grow in their confidence because it's easy for me also to talk about like you need to stop the conversation and I'm also doing that right now if that happens if that occurs but the first conversation that I had I just choked there was this conversation where the customer was sitting in front of me and it's been the first company that I've worked on and that champion was so arrogant and he's like your stereotypical white straightest dude that he like he could have like done everything he was the man like that was like your alpha man and he was sitting across from me and I was having this QBR mind you that it was my second year as a CSM so six years ago and a person stopped me mid-presentation and he was like can I ask you something and I was like yeah sure and he was like are you a fag and I was like not one yes but two no like that is not what I'm here about so I choked so that is indeed not a respectful way and afterwards like we said then we did the initial conversation like yeah we don't speak to CSM that way we're transferring your account everything worked out in the end but then I had the same kind of discussion two years ago with a client that I visited in the States we were like just after the meeting we were just small talking and he said to me it's a pity because you're so smart but due to your sexuality you will never get as far as anyone else but that was also the moment where I learned to say like hey I know my worth this was so uncalled for I'm calling my Uber I'm transferring your account like you're doing amazing with our product but this relationship is not going to happen so in that sense it takes balls to stand up to your customer so I want to first maybe did you ever encounter the same situation and do you have tips and tricks to grow a pair?

[Elodie] (29:39 - 30:52)

I would say it probably depends on your personality but I guess that it's happening it's easier to stand for yourself when you are growing older and you know how to react and as you said you know your worth and then I can give you actually a very good example that was a very now I remember that thing so this customer they were French asset management company with offices in the city of London and back then I was still based in London and with my lovely self-counterparts we went to visit them and that was the main contact who was normally based in Paris and she actually visited the London office and there were her London colleague and the plan so this main contact they never wanted to talk to me ever I don't know why even like email, phones, never ever and then I got to meet her then I was like wow amazing and then I realized when I met her and don't ask me why because to this day I still don't know from the get-go she hated me like if she could have like killed me with a knife she would have done it I don't know why because I never spoke to her apart from a bunch of emails

[Stino] (30:52 - 30:53)

yeah

[Elodie] (30:53 - 31:31)

no interaction whatsoever and then her British colleague was there it was all about okay doing my customer success manager's magic doing demos and delivering value to them and then the other lady she was pretty engaged and she was willing to do so and the other one she kept I was trying to do my job and she kept interrupting me and then at some point I still remember my sales colleague's face when at some point I was like you know the last straw on the camel's back and then I was like what the fuck is wrong with her like in my mind I was like what's wrong and then I say can I finish my sentence for once

[Stino] (31:31 - 31:32)

yes

[Elodie] (31:32 - 32:25)

and then like and the other colleague was like oh my god because in the British culture you don't do that I mean that's not it and then my other sales colleague who is French too she was like oh my god how dare she's speaking like this and then I was like I'm sorry but she is the one disrespecting me and she keeps interrupting me at least let me finish my sentence and if you disagree you can disagree with me I don't mind and then to this day afterwards she calmed down but then I think she just had a problem with me I don't know why because then when I got promoted I passed this account over to my predecessor and well we tend to call him the womanizer because I don't know he's always charming ladies I don't know why and then I saw this lady giggling in front of and then I was like what the heck she was almost spitting to my face

[Stino] (32:25 - 32:26)

it's a fine thing

[Elodie] (32:26 - 32:51)

yeah but then now I'm like you know what I can take anything but if you disrespect me it's a no and I'm not gonna endure and maybe one day it's a bad day for you you're not happy I don't know it's not my problem you know what I mean it's none of my business the same way with the guy he asked you about your sexual orientation it's none of your business

[Stino] (32:51 - 32:57)

yeah no it's business at the end of the day you pay me money to drive you value what about you Melmie?

[Melanie] (32:59 - 33:50)

well I think it takes practice like thinking something and then actually saying it it's our two different things right like I tend to keep calm in conversations even when I know we don't mesh as my I'm the CSM they're the client we don't mesh but I sweep it under the table and just do my job but I don't know if I've ever encountered like there are times when I should have said something for sure and I haven't I've just let someone get away with it and then you're kind of mad at yourself afterwards right like grow a backbone say something but you know I'm not always sure what that reaction is going to be and then I think to myself I have to keep working with them too so it still needs to be a working relationship and if I say the wrong thing what's gonna happen? so yeah I tend to just be quiet and put up with it even though I'm mad at myself afterwards

[Stino] (33:51 - 33:55)

such a Canadian answer like you're too sweet

[Melanie] (33:55 - 33:56)

it totally is

[Elodie] (33:56 - 35:03)

I'm way too Canadian maybe I need to become a boyfriend now he feels like my memory is back I do remember he was in a peer-to-peer situation when I had this colleague and they kept making like slightly disgusting racist comments all the time but you know those small sentences like here and there yeah it wasn't like the obvious would see like from the get-go but you know those small things and then but repeatedly yeah as you said I should have said something because imagine if with me they are saying this how do they react when they are actually talking to a black colleague or and then obviously because racism always come with the package of intolerance so imagine if the person is from the LGBTQ plus community and then I was like so how do you imagine if you see something that disgusting someone making like racist comments or stuff like that would you still say I need to work with them because I've done that mistake too

[Melanie] (35:03 - 35:23)

I kind of would be nervous even just thinking about what I would do I think at first yeah I would ignore it I would try it because maybe they're just made a stupid comment and it's not going to happen again but if it's repeated I think that's a different story then you have to kind of figure out how to address it and whether that's like a conversation with them or I don't know I'm not good at this

[Stino] (35:23 - 37:01)

that is the perfect answer to everything like difficult conversations that doesn't happen in Canada we're comedians we are so lovely people no but I do love this episode because it's indeed it started with basically everything is data-driven like you need to gather the evidence you need to gather the facts like if you're having it like needed to have a difficult conversation what I love is basically taking the emotion out of it because difficult is an emotion it is on the spectrum but having the conversations doesn't need to be that emotionally loaded meaning that if you start it from a data-driven point of view where with data I mean facts or proof or whatever you want to call it because in that sense that conversation doesn't need to be emotional and they can throw whatever shit that they want the cat is sick the cat shitted itself like whatever the proof is in the padding and I think that is an easier way to deliver difficult conversations so also to Melanie's point even if you're Canadian practice makes perfect you said earlier I think it starts with if you have the data to back it up it's easier to have that conversation because you're not leading with emotion you're not attacking someone on their personality you are like this happened this was not cool you're not doing this part of the job right so you need to do it right there you go so in that sense I really love the outcome of this episode one takeaway for everyone

[Elodie] (37:02 - 38:24)

I will finish on in terms of key takeaways with that conversation is that I always especially when I know some of the people that we deliver the feedback to might be sensitive because of either in the nature of the feedback or simply the way they are I always start by remember feedback is a gift because first of all unless I have to honestly it's a bit selfish but I'm very busy so unless I have to because I'm paid to do that I will not give you any feedback unless I really need to or because it's impacting me badly so feedback is a gift I'm giving you this gift because it's all about improvement and for you to become a better professional basically in this setting and then also to emphasize on the impact you focus on the facts okay so this happened the facts but then the impact is that the point is not to judge people and say oh look at the data it's like when this happens the impact is for instance someone is not logging their customer interaction properly then the impact is that we are losing business intelligence and then how do we know if tomorrow you leave the company what happened with this customer so it's to really focus on the impact and why we are delivering this feedback in the first place

[Stino] (38:24 - 38:27)

I love that Melanie take us home

[Melanie] (38:28 - 39:02)

Key takeaway okay I really like what Elodie said earlier about delivering the feedback and then following up with an email afterwards because depending on the type of feedback maybe that person's just checked out so having it in writing and then be able to come back to it and take the emotion out of it and then review what that feedback was I really like that but also for managers maybe consider giving the person who's reporting to you time to provide that feedback in a way that they're comfortable with if you're asking for it just give them space to deliver it the way that they're comfortable with and then have a conversation about it

[Stino] (39:03 - 39:09)

awesome well Melanie you can take us totally home wrap it up in a bow

[Melanie] (39:09 - 39:21)

okay thank you everyone for listening to this episode of we fucked up so you don't have to and a special thank you to Elodie thanks for joining us today thank you for having me

[Stino] (39:22 - 39:30)

thank you so much to everyone else see you next episode because we're still having a menage a trois with Ajmay we'll hear you soon guys bye bye

[Melanie] (39:30 - 39:31)

bye