#WFU Episode 16:

In this episode we welcome Mick Weijers, Founder of Customer Success Snack, to chat how to overcome a know-it-all customer:

00:00:00 - Intro

00:03:30 - When the customer takes the wheel

00:05:59 - Even senior leaders fall for it

00:07:49 - Holding your ground in tough calls

00:09:06 - The client who knew better (but didn’t)

00:12:13 - Faking confidence vs. building trust

00:17:08 - When big accounts push too hard

00:25:59 - Which outcome framing works best?

00:29:22 - Key takeaways

And hey, we want to hear from you! What topics do you want us to tackle next? Reach out and let us know. Remember, we’re here to share how We Fucked Up So You Don’t Have To.

Reach out to Melanie: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melanie-faye/

Reach out to Stino: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stijn-smet-%F0%9F%90%B3-330435a9/

Sign up for the Lifetime Value newsletter: https://lifetimevalue.link/subscribe

[Mick] (0:00 - 0:45)

I want to do a little quiz. I have three answers, A, B, and C, and the relationship between these answers and renewal. Either you can present the data, software X managed to get you this and this and this result.

That's option A. Then option B, you managed to get this and this result. And then option C is together we achieve this and this result.

Those are three ways of how you can present data around outcomes. And there is one that's a clear winner of relationship with renewal and upsell. And there's also one that people pick.

So which one do you think people pick? And which one do you think is the best?

[VO] (0:49 - 1:30)

Welcome to another exciting episode of We Fucked Up So You Don't Have To. Get ready to dive into the wild world of customer success with your hosts, Stino and Melanie. Join them as they peel back the curtain on their own mishaps and triumphs, sharing candid insights and practical advice along the way.

Stino, a charismatic head of customer success, brings his unfiltered wisdom to the table, while Melanie, the seasoned customer success manager, offers invaluable career insights. Together, they'll laugh, learn, and navigate the twists and turns of the customer success journey. So buckle up and let's dive in.

[Stino] (1:34 - 2:46)

Hi everyone and welcome to a new episode of the We Fucked Up So You Don't Have To podcast, where you're again with a threesome and it's again a man. It's two times in a row. So we're leveling out the quota here.

I think we're now like three women, two men. So in that sense, one more man. We're leveling the quota.

So that's good. We're inclusive. We're inclusive here.

For today, we have the most amazing guy on here. He has been my mentor for the last couple of years. He introduced me into the most amazing community.

He graciously let me lead and host the Belgium one, which is still, I think, a mistake until this day. No, but he is the founder of CSNack. He is so intelligent.

He's so brilliant. And the content that he puts out on LinkedIn and the way on how he selflessly shares that content and just wants other people to feel better and the selflessness level of building that community is just insane. You know already who I'm talking about?

I'm talking about no one other than Mick Weijers. Hi, Mick. How are you today?

Wow.

[Mick] (2:46 - 2:51)

I don't know if I've ever had an intro like that in my life.

[Stino] (2:54 - 3:04)

Well, it's all the truth that I'm saying. You don't need to turn red. It's a compliment.

Like Dutch people can't take compliments for shit. Take the compliment, Mick.

[Mick] (3:04 - 3:22)

Luckily, it's a podcast. So people don't see me blush. No, like Stino, you do know that if you're a mentor to someone, there's one thing that you want.

That's that your mentee outshines you. So that's where you are at. So good luck, Stino, encountering that one.

And Melanie, thank you very much for having me here.

[Melanie] (3:22 - 3:25)

Yeah, thank you for being here. We're excited to chat.

[Stino] (3:26 - 3:30)

Awesome. So what is the fuck up that you're bringing to us today, Mick?

[Mick] (3:30 - 4:19)

The fuck up is not that Stino, you're the Belgium CSNack. I think that's the best decision that we could have made. You're running it amazingly.

But no, my biggest fuck up is something that happened many times, and I hope it's not going to happen in the future, but I can't be certain of that. It's basically that the customer's in the driving seat and you have the idea that it's going into the right direction. You're helping the customer, but then you fail the milestones or you fail the success, impact, and then in the end, they churn or they don't renew.

So in the end, my biggest fuck up is not shifting from being in the driving seat or actually in the back seat. And I wish that I can say that never happens in the future, but I hope that you can relate to that as well.

[Stino] (4:20 - 4:44)

Yeah, 100%. I think it has all to do with wanting to build that perfect relationship with your customer where you open up a little too much and it's like this opening that the customer sees like, oh, but now I will insert myself. I really make sure that I get what I need, right?

[Mick] (4:45 - 5:45)

So do you recognize this one? So yeah, thank you very much for everything you've shared, Mick, and what the journey should look like, what the milestones are. But our company is different.

Okay, like your company is different, then what do you want to do differently? And especially if you're an early stage startup, you're still looking for ICP or you're growing, or you're a bit of a people pleaser, then you might fall for that trap. Okay, we're going to do things differently.

And in the past, what I didn't do was, if we don't hit certain milestones, then we switch back to my method. But if we hit everything, and it's all good, then we can stay on your path. But I've never made this trade off with the customer.

And that made me lose quite some big deals. Because experience, seniority, confidence, I think that's all the playing field of PostSales leaders and ICs where we are.

[Stino] (5:45 - 5:59)

No, I love that take that 100%. But I do think it's more related to the starting out CSMs. Or is it also something that can happen to senior leadership, you think?

[Mick] (5:59 - 6:39)

It can happen always. Let's say that you're moving up from an SMB to an enterprise motion, and then the enterprise is going to say, we have a lot of seniority, it's different. So let's switch it all around a little bit, like the implementation plan or the change plan, because we are a big brand, and we have X, Y set differently.

And then if you don't set the stage, either you say, we're not going to do it differently, or you don't say, okay, we do it differently. But if you're going off track, I want to pull you on track with some of our playbooks. If you don't make that trade off in the beginning, then it can always happen.

If you're a junior, senior leader, it's a trapdoor that's there.

[Melanie] (6:40 - 7:48)

Yeah, I think like going back to what you just said about confidence, that's so key is there are certain personalities that can read you right when you're on a call with a customer and they know if they can walk all over you or if they are going to lead the conversation. I deal with those personalities all the time. And you have to set boundaries at the beginning of those calls.

And sometimes that's hard to do. You kind of end up sitting back a little bit too much and letting them take the lead. And you know, it's going in the wrong direction, but it almost becomes too late to stop.

Or if they're leading a conversation where you're not there to talk about feature requests or bugs or things that they don't love about the software, and then it goes off the what's the word side rails? Is that the right word? And it's really hard to get those back again, and then focus on what those future conversations are going to look like.

Because you have to have a plan to talk to those customers, knowing exactly what you're going to cover and what's going to you're going to tell them right off the bat, that's not what we're talking about today. Let's focus on this. And then we'll come back to those feature requests of those other things you're experiencing.

But that can be really hard to do, especially as a newer CSM, or even someone who's not a product expert or a subject matter. Yeah, that can be a challenge.

[Stino] (7:49 - 7:50)

Yeah, Canadian.

[Mick] (7:53 - 8:42)

What I often discuss now with people is that we're sure bus like we know what the next stage of this company on the route to the Mount Everest should look like. But there are still cases where customers will diverge from this route, that's going to be successful. So it's about balancing, okay, we want to diverge, we have this ambitious goal, we're going to reach it.

So many times it works a little bit of customization and a little like different path and different scenarios. Sometimes I'm too ambitious, and too maybe naive and positive to say, okay, we're going to try that route without setting the clear boundaries on when I'm going to pull you back on this route. So I think my weakness and my strength, so this will be a fuck up that's going to happen at least one more time in my life.

[Stino] (8:44 - 9:05)

Can you tell us more about a real life situation? Let's call them client x and how you try to fix that. But how you went into that rabbit hole and where you were basically on a roller coaster where everything is exciting going up and then once you're at the top, you're like, I'm going downhill from there.

And then going up again, trying to fix that one.

[Mick] (9:06 - 10:42)

So client x was actually going from a new industry or a new vertical at the scale up where I was working. They said, Okay, we know all your customer success stories, and all the success stories of all these amazing companies, but we're different. And I said, Okay, I understand you're different.

What is different? Yeah, our employees will do x, y, z. They made all kinds of promises and statements.

And I was like, Okay, that's amazing. We have seen it differently here and there. But if you say it's different, and you have proof, amazing, change of implementation, change of onboarding plan, we're going to do a different approach.

Like, instead of going into the offices and having in person trainings, we said, Okay, we're doing a digital and remote on demand, because that's what they wanted. They were completely different company. And then, in the end, they didn't hit their milestones.

And then I tried to say, Hey, we're not hitting our milestones. And I tried to pull them back on. But basically, they said, Yeah, sorry, we lost interest.

And we're going to churn at the end of this contract. And we take the losses. Goodbye.

I wish I could say I fixed that. But that one, I just didn't. And that's the biggest fuck up.

And it was a big contract. So in the future, nowadays, when they want to go off track, I say, Okay, now we're going to be on tight leash, we're gonna have weekly check-in calls. And this is program A, where I can add these kind of metrics.

We need to have similar results. Or I really want to help you get back on track and be the Sherpa to have this shared success. So yeah, that's the solution for my own fuck up.

But it happened like I didn't fix it. Which is totally fine.

[Melanie] (10:42 - 10:52)

Which is perfectly fine as well.

[Stino] (10:52 - 12:12)

And I do think it sometimes is with the feeling that if you're indeed Melanie, what you mentioned earlier as well, that you're not a subject matter expert just yet, because I worked at the company as well that made accounting software. And by no means, I was an accountant. So in the very beginning, well, fun fact, I am a tax lawyer, so I can do your personal income tax and your corporate tax to the nail.

But I'm not an accountant. And it indeed doesn't matter if you are a seasoned CSM, or if you are a junior CSM, every time that you're starting out at the company, you have this learning curve. And first six months to a year, you have a lot of, especially if it's not an industry that you're used to, a lot of learnings to do and you need to get to know your customers.

So customers always see that as your weakness to swoop in and be like, No, but I'm doing this profession. I know what I need. So you need to do this for me.

And then in the very beginning, you are not that confident that you're going to push back and that you have the metrics that are proven with your previous customers. And I don't have the answer to that as well. So please feel free to chime in.

But how would you even if you are in that early stage of a new job, how would you push back?

[Mick] (12:13 - 12:55)

So basically, it's all about building that confidence and sharing success stories of others, like either you have a portfolio of hundreds or whole teams, you have portfolio 500 or 1000 customers from day one, all of the stories of all the other people that have been in that position before you are yours. Like that's the number one solution to that challenge. However, what if it's a new business unit?

What if it's a new vertical? What if it's a new product, and you don't have those 500 customers? Is it then that you need to fake it until you make it the confidence?

Is it you need to pull the seniority guards, the authority guard? Or do you need to be humble? And do you need to be honest?

[Stino] (12:57 - 13:01)

Interesting. My initial one would say fake it until you make it.

[Mick] (13:01 - 13:05)

I can quote you on it. It's fake until you make it. He said it.

[Stino] (13:05 - 13:36)

I would definitely go like my instinct would go for the first one, fake it until you make it. And that's so contradictory, but also be open and transparent. You can fake that confidence.

That is something that you can easily fake if you're already in customer success for quite some time. But the transparency part of it is also something that needs to mesh with each other. You can come across very confident, but very confident that you're going to get the answers that the customer needs.

[Melanie] (13:36 - 13:36)

Yeah.

[Stino] (13:36 - 14:04)

Instead of being not so confident and be like, I think it's something that we can do, but let me check. The customer checked out the moment you said, I think that's something that we can do. So again, faking it like, I don't know, but I will get you those answers is a confident answer with transparency.

But being not so confident and be like, I think so. It's just my second week. That's not going to cut it.

[Melanie] (14:05 - 14:40)

Yeah. I think there's nothing worse than talking to a customer and accidentally saying, I'm sorry, I'm new to accounting. In my case, I'm new to bookkeeping.

I don't know a lot about it, but we're going to do your onboarding today. That's the worst. Or I just started a week ago, but let's go through your onboarding.

Nobody wants to hear that. I completely leave that out of any conversations that I'm having with the customer, because that's when you want them to trust you. You have to be their strategic partner.

And I think knowing that right off the bat that you really do not know what you're talking about is not a good way to build trust and build that relationship.

[Stino] (14:41 - 14:41)

No.

[Mick] (14:41 - 15:36)

I completely agree there. And also, I believe that the onboarding time should be longer. Also, customer success is not a junior role.

Sometimes it's just a conversation like, yeah, just start your career as a customer success manager. No. Take more time.

It's not a junior position. That confidence, Tino, is definitely there. But imagine you're now starting at a new company as a senior leader.

Your confidence around product and onboarding time isn't there. You don't have six months, but you do need to be able to support the team on having those tough conversations with customers. And I thought about why is it now less of a problem than in the past?

It's about asking the right questions. And it's not about industry expertise. It's about asking the right questions.

So instead of faking it until you're making it or building confidence on any other stories, it's learned to ask better questions. And then you can prevent this all from happening.

[Stino] (15:36 - 17:08)

Yeah. Easy on paper. Indeed, easy on paper, because you need to be confident to ask the tricky questions as well.

Yes. Because if the questions that I'm asking right now, if you would ask younger Tino from seven years ago, he would flat out shit his pants. You need to have somewhat of experience in asking those questions as well.

It's all of the different factors altogether. Your management needs to allow you to onboard or need to give you some tips and tricks. They need to be aware that you're just coming in.

So even if they already handle your book of business, please give them some pointers on how to handle certain questions. If they arise, leadership is in the best position to really make sure that it's not a, how do you call it? Fright, fly or die mode.

That you don't go into that mode. That you're basically, once I did it, because I was so terrified in the early thing of my career, customer was asking me all of these questions. I was like, I completely froze and I just ended the meeting because I didn't know what to do.

That was like that fly or die mode. And I faked it that it was my internet connection that was going out. But like, I was terrified to the bone because I didn't have all the answers.

And it's as easy as just saying, thank you. I don't know the answer right now. Why do you want to do this?

And let me check with the product team. That is the easiest question. And the customer isn't going to look at you differently if you're open and transparent.

[Mick] (17:08 - 17:48)

Yeah. But I also think if we go back to my fuck up, like in the end, listening too much to the customer, if a customer is, for example, responsible for 50% of the revenue of a company, then often you're going to listen too much to that customer because they're just too important to lose, like too big to fail. So then it's time to give feedback back to leadership, say, sorry, we need to focus on ICP and everything.

But on paper, it's so nice. But what if all the revenue is dependent on it? What if all the employees are dependent on it?

So yes, it's a balancing act. Melanie, I want to know how should I have handled my fuck up better? What could I have done to not lose that customer?

Come on, Canadian.

[Melanie] (17:48 - 20:20)

Oh, gosh. You know, I'm thinking of this example, because it's kind of recent. So I'm a little ashamed about my recent fuck up.

But have you ever had a client where you're onboarding a customer, and they come into this onboarding, even if it's not an onboarding, and maybe it's like a QBR or something. And they're so cocky that they know everything about the software. There's nothing you can teach them.

In my case, it was an onboarding. And they had already had access to our software for like a week already, which I don't love because they click around too much, they think they know what they're doing, and then think I can't teach them anything. So this happened, and they were clicking around, and I couldn't control them.

And they had their own thoughts about how they were going to use the software, which was wrong. Like, I would never encourage them to do things the way that they were trying to do things. And so I kept thinking to myself, like, we're getting minutes into this call.

And I'm thinking, like, what am I going to do? There were two of them. And they were just having this conversation amongst themselves.

Like, I wasn't even there. And we're all on this zoom call together. And so I just had to stop it and say, I would love to take you through the onboarding the way that I really want you to be able to utilize the software and based on the priorities that we've talked about, let's focus on those right now.

And then we can come back to these other little things that I don't think are going to make as much of an impact for you as these other features that I want to focus on. And I don't think they loved being told what I was going to be doing or that I wanted to run the call this way. But they kind of accepted that's what was going to happen.

And they still were very clicky and not a whole lot of listening. But I have noticed that their account is completely set up. They're ready for their upcoming call, their usage looks good.

And I don't think that would have happened if I had just let them be on their way and click around and have their own agenda on that call. I was like, okay, they've onboarded with software before, do I just let them run with it? Or do I stop it now?

And say, let's try it this way. Because I think you have to go with your gut to my gut was telling me this is going to be fucked up. They're not going to be able to use the software, they're going to churn.

So that was my decision. But in the past, I haven't done that. I've just I've let people take over the conversation, take over the onboarding, click around, learn a little bit as they go.

You know, and it's not it's never ideal. It's never been then it's hard to get them back on calls again. So I think setting boundaries at the start, even though it's hard, especially with really big personalities, in this case, these two were huge personalities.

And then for me, I'm like, Okay, I gotta just step in there and do it.

[Stino] (20:21 - 20:28)

I love the fact how you were like, huge personalities is basically the same as huge assholes.

[Melanie] (20:28 - 20:28)

Yeah.

[Stino] (20:28 - 21:29)

Yeah. But is there a fix? I think those fuckups are extremely hard.

Because if you don't set the boundary, you're in it before you know it. And it's extremely hard to pull back from that one. I don't know if they have the same saying in the Netherlands, or in English.

But they always say like, when you give them a finger, they will take your entire arm. So that is basically what this is all about. The moment you give them a little taste of what can happen, they want the entire menu.

And that is the hardest thing to come back from. Because indeed, sometimes you are setting those boundaries too late. And then you come across aggressive or not trustworthy.

If you do it too late, or you never do it, it opens up for churn. If you do it from the beginning, it's maybe not the easiest way to forge a relationship. So and this is one of the hardest.

[Mick] (21:31 - 22:29)

I want to check one thing with you. So still, most people in both sales are people pleasers, like it's slowly changing, and we're getting there. And then you said, Yeah, if you're too strict from the beginning, they might churn.

How often does that really happen? And I would like to challenge everyone, find out when it happens. Because then you know, because otherwise, it's a fear.

I would say, yeah, better be a bit more strict, better Sherpa, and then have it backfire once, then losing customers, because you're on the pleasing side. And it's a fear that lives in everyone. Because you don't want to lose your customer, because you feel responsible, even though it's not your journey to company.

No, you feel responsible when you lose. Yeah. So yeah, try to push it.

And that helped that mindset shift helped me. Is it a real fear? Or did I really lose one?

Because I was being too strict? Did they see me as cocky or like grumpy? Yeah, on the balance?

[Stino] (22:30 - 24:16)

Yeah, I really love that. And it's not necessarily that I think they will turn I think it's more or less harder to forge a relationship. But indeed, that you need to do it from the first moment that you're getting in contact with them.

Because how we work out, well, we have a pre onboarding, and they're everything needs to be like, cheerleading pom poms to make them sign. But then if they sign and you go into to be like, no, this is how we're going to handle it, you little bee. That is for me that is sometimes like a honey trap.

You're like, that is no, but I do get it. I think what helps me the most is going in with data points. If you're setting those boundaries is it really helps to set up some data points that you gather from other customers.

Because, again, they don't trust you just yet, you need to build that relationship. So how are you going to build that trust on? How are you going to set those boundaries?

If you come with reasonable data that they can resonate with, as well, this is how we're going to do this. This is how we did it with other customers. These are the results.

So please trust me, this is the way to go. And even if they wouldn't be like, we can, like Mick mentioned, this is the outcome that we want to get. If you want to do it, three cartwheels, five backflips, instead of two backflips and seven cartwheels, be my guest.

But at the end, the score should be the same. So I totally get that, that it should be happening at the beginning of the relationship. But if you're not confident, or you're like, stressing out when you're trying to do that, use data points, because they always are a little bit ease of the mind.

[Mick] (24:17 - 24:28)

Well, you need to build a relationship. So you have your relationship hat on, your cheerleader hat on, your data hat on, your strict hat on, like your policing hat. It's a challenging job, right?

But it's worth it.

[Melanie] (24:28 - 24:55)

I think you need your psychology hat on too, because there's a whole psychology aspect of being a CSM, right? You have to appeal to your customer the way that it's going to mean something to them. So that's a whole other thing, right?

You have to know their personality, and then figure out how to sneak in there so that you can still have things done your way, but it's going to work for them. And maybe they even think it's their idea.

[Stino] (24:58 - 25:34)

Reverse psychology. That is the way to go. That's a fun fact.

The amount of times where I said, hey, we released this new feature based on your feedback. 99% of the times the customer didn't give that feedback because they don't even know which kind of feedback they gave along the course of that relationship. So I always say we'll release a new feature and I'm like super hyped.

Remember when you told me this would be super helpful for Will? They were like, yeah. And I'm like, it is here.

And it's like reverse psychology because I'm like, I'm 90% sure you never asked me that, but here we are.

[Melanie] (25:35 - 25:37)

You, you did it. It was your feedback.

[Stino] (25:38 - 25:58)

So basically, does anyone know that movie Split with, I don't know the actor's name, but basically that person had like 47 people living inside of him. Wow. Yeah.

That's really, basically that is how a CSM is. You need to be like, make mansions shift between personalities.

[Mick] (25:59 - 26:55)

We're cuckoo. Thank you for talking about those data points. I want to do a little quiz.

So the relationship between, I have three answers, A, B, and C, and the relationship between these answers and renewal. Either you can present the data. I managed to get you this and this results, or software X managed to get you this and this results.

That's option A. Then option B, you managed to get this and this result. And then option three C is together.

We achieved this and this results. Those are three ways of how you can present data around outcomes. And there is one that's a clear winner of relationship with renewal and upsell.

And there's also one that people pick. So good. Which one do you think people pick?

And which one do you think is the best? Leave it first.

[Melanie] (26:55 - 27:06)

Oh, okay. So I think people pick A, but the best is C.

[Stino] (27:08 - 27:14)

Okay. And Stino? Oh, it's such a tricky question.

Can I plead the fifth?

[Mick] (27:17 - 27:37)

You were close, but people- He's failing at the quiz. Oh, wait, sorry. Because together, they think together we did it.

But in the end, customers love it if it's just a customer. It's them. And in the end, of course, there's different studies, but it's putting the customer first and you're just, you're down the sidelines.

You're like not existing.

[Stino] (27:37 - 28:12)

Yeah. 100%. I was doubting between B and C and it's easier to say right now, but just the placement, because the thing is, the you one is a very, I get it because you're cheerleading on the customer, but if they can do it themselves.

So think about all the companies that have service as an add-on that are now up and coming and very booming because everyone is trying to find new revenue streams. If you're saying you, it means we don't need the service anymore because I can do it all by myself. But if you say we, it is the renewal of service as an add-on.

So I get it.

[Melanie] (28:13 - 28:27)

Yeah. My thought about C was like, when it comes to a renewal conversation, don't you want to make it clear that it was like, because of the software, you achieved all of these things. Like you still did it, but it was the software that helped you get to that place.

[Mick] (28:27 - 28:38)

I think we need to do another study soon. Now all the add-ons are there. In general, there's too little customer success studies.

So yeah, we'll study. So we need to do more studies.

[Melanie] (28:39 - 28:39)

Okay.

[Stino] (28:40 - 28:42)

We need to, especially with the new landscape.

[Melanie] (28:43 - 28:55)

No, but that'd be interesting to hear from people, right? What do you think to anyone listening? What would you choose?

How would you approach a renewal conversation? Maybe this is wrong. So tell me if it's wrong, but I like to make it a partnership.

[Stino] (28:57 - 29:11)

I think so too. But also there, I do have a feeling that is like an entire other topic, like how to fuck up a renewal. So maybe Mick, maybe we want to invite you to the follow-up, like how to fuck up a renewal.

[Mick] (29:15 - 29:20)

I would love to come back on how to fuck up a renewal.

[Stino] (29:22 - 29:32)

That is a date. That is a date because we love to keep these concise and consistent. One key takeaway from this episode.

Let's do a little bit of a round table. Melanie, you go first.

[Melanie] (29:33 - 29:42)

Okay. Wait, I just have to, Mick, you go first. Cause I have to process for a second.

What did we just talk about?

[Mick] (29:42 - 30:15)

My key takeaway is that based on everything you said as well, and what I've learned is that I should be a little more strict and setting boundaries and not letting the customer take the lead too much. And the solution to get there is add data points, ask questions. So you really understand where the customer is, where the customer wants to be in the future to be that sure bet and double down on both of those.

And basically don't lose control. Awesome. I love that.

[Melanie] (30:17 - 30:35)

Okay. My takeaway is I think it's okay to be a little bit flexible, but trust your gut, trust your experience and where you've seen success and where things haven't worked out when the customer takes the lead or when they take over and take control and put on your PhD hat and know who you're talking to and then how to deal with that personality type.

[Stino] (30:36 - 31:52)

I love that. For me as well, those questions, all the right questions at the right time, I think we often overlook that even if we're getting too comfortable in the role that we are in. So definitely keep those questions at top of mind when customer wants to do something, how they want to do it, why they want to do it.

I think we often overlook the why question because even if you're starting out or you're like more senior in your role or your leadership, you don't know everything. So keep asking that why, don't get lazy, don't sleep on that why question because that why question is your best friend. And on that note, Mick, thank you so much for this episode.

I can't wait for the follow-up episode because I had so much fun on this one. If people want to link up with Mick, he is available and linkable on LinkedIn. He has, again, this amazing community that runs through Europe and I think maybe we need to expand it to Canada because you would already have a possible candidate in Melanie.

No, but if you want to have follow-up questions with Mick, myself or Melanie, please link up with us on LinkedIn and we're more than happy to catch you on another episode of the We Fucked Up So You Don't Have to Podcast. See you soon. Bye-bye.

[Melanie] (31:52 - 31:52)

Bye.