#WFU Episode 7:

In this episode, we help you strike the balance between lazy and stalker vibes:

00:00:00 - Survey says

00:00:20 - Intro

00:01:06 - Boob sweat

00:03:14 - Too little personalization: The check-in email fail

00:05:08 - The art of customized emails

00:07:13 - Balancing efficiency and personalization

00:09:43 - Too much personalization: The cupcake incident

00:11:10 - Finding the right level of personalization

00:13:16 - Personalized communication setting the tone

00:16:02 - Starbucks gift card snafu

00:19:24 - Alternatives to endless Zoom meetings

00:21:04 - The experiment: Picking up the phone

And hey, we want to hear from you! What topics do you want us to tackle next? Reach out and let us know. Remember, we’re here to share how We Fucked Up So You Don’t Have To.

[Melanie] (0:00 - 0:15)

I sent each client a survey, and it only had four questions. And one of the questions was, how do you want me to communicate with you? And a one-on-one meeting was the sort of first option that they could choose.

And zero of my clients chose that.

[Voiceover] (0:20 - 1:00)

Welcome to another exciting episode of We Fucked Up So You Don't Have To. Get ready to dive into the wild world of customer success with your hosts, Stino and Melanie. Join them as they peel back the curtain on their own mishaps and triumphs, sharing candid insights and practical advice along the way.

Stino, a charismatic head of customer success, brings his unfiltered wisdom to the table, while Melanie, the seasoned customer success manager, offers invaluable career insights. Together, they'll laugh, learn, and navigate the twists and turns of the customer success journey. So buckle up and let's dive in.

[Stino] (1:06 - 1:18)

And welcome at a new episode of the We Fucked Up So You Don't Have To podcast. My name is Stino, and I'm here still with my lovely co-host, Melanie. Hi, Melanie, how are you doing?

[Melanie] (1:19 - 1:21)

Oh, I am good.

[Stino] (1:21 - 2:22)

Things are so hot in Belgium. It's insane. Even my underboob is sweating.

I can't cope. I try to sit still as much as I can, because the thing is, in Belgium, air conditioning is not the way to go. We often get a sensible 70 degrees kind of stuff, but now it's been a whopping 90, 100, 110.

So that is literally... And it's humid as fuck as well. So the moment I turn, or just make the smallest movement, drops of sweat are trickling down.

So I hope it will rain. That's the thing, though, right? If it's raining, everyone is like, why can't it be sun?

And when it's sunny, everyone is like, oh, please, God, make it rain. Someone, please, can just be a sensible 70, no clouds in the sky, just some chilly, but warm sweater weather, like have that bottle of rosé.

[Melanie] (2:23 - 2:24)

Some birds chirping.

[Stino] (2:25 - 2:27)

But now I'm confronted with underboob sweat.

[Melanie] (2:31 - 2:37)

Okay, well, I'm sorry to hear that. It's only eight in the morning for me right now, so we're not experiencing that quite yet.

[Stino] (2:37 - 3:14)

Yeah, well, it's one in the afternoon, and I still need to teach Zumba tonight, and I'm like, how the fuck am I coping? How will I cope? Like, no.

Put on your leotard. Yes. Today, we're not going to talk about my underboob sweat.

We're here to talk about personalization and how you can do too little, but also how you can do too much. I will let you guys figure out who is the little and who is the too much alongside our fuckups. So Melanie, take it away.

Okay.

[Melanie] (3:14 - 4:28)

Let's talk about too little personalization. That'll be me. The elusive CSM.

I think we've all been in the position before where you have this long list of customers that you need to reach out to, and you need to get it done as quickly as possible. And so you start sending those emails if you're seeing low activity or low adoption or not enough going on. And so you start sending those dreaded check-in emails where you're not really saying much of anything, and you're asking for their time, and you're not giving anything in return.

I've been there before, and I have pissed a lot of people off. In fact, I even had someone say, stop reaching out to me. There's no reason for your emails.

So please stop emailing. I kind of knew already that that was fine. As CSMs, we're not supposed to be sending those check-in emails.

But when you're trying to get things checked off your list and messaging customers, it seems like the easiest way to get through. He actually told me, I'm not going to respond back to you. So unless you have something interesting to tell me, do not email me, he said.

Yeah. And I said, OK, I got to change up my tactics here. I already knew I shouldn't be doing it, but now this solidifies it.

[Stino] (4:28 - 5:06)

That's the thing, though. Especially now in the era of chat GPT, I think it's easy to get lost in stuff that is one and done, quickly sending out. I think we now often, since chat is there, people expect us to do our job much quicker, which often it does help to get our job done much quicker if done the right way.

But indeed, we often just have, OK, I need to send out these 30 emails and then make it as soon as possible. What did you change? I would die on the spot.

[Melanie] (5:08 - 6:29)

Well, first of all, I responded back with, I'm sorry, kind of email, like sheepish, you know, how embarrassing. I'm not even doing my job properly. But from that day, that's when I changed up how I was sending these emails.

So I would go back to my notes. I had their goals listed out. I had the last couple of really important things that we talked about on a call or that I had recorded just from an email.

And then that's what I added into those emails. So based on what we talked about last time, is such and such still a priority? I've noticed this in this.

Did you know this feature can help you kind of thing? So highly customized emails for those clients that just needed extra touch points or help with why they should be logging in to get them back into the software again. And I found that did work.

I didn't have people responding back saying, Great, thank you. But I could see that their logins had increased or that they had tried out a new feature, that type of thing. So it does work.

But also, it takes consistency, because it's not going to get them into the software right off the bat. Like there is consistency that has to come from the part of the CSM. One email may not be what gets them back in It's going to take a few emails and kind of rebuilding that sort of CSM trust relationship again.

[Stino] (6:29 - 7:13)

I think that is indeed a lack of customization and personalization really can like disrupt. Well, disrupt is maybe a strong word, but like, it's a knack in your relationship, almost where you're like, what is the value that you're bringing me with this conversations? And indeed, I love the fact that you went back and then took like the goals, objectives and be like, Okay, this is, this is what we're going to do.

And this is how it could or should look like. So in that sense, I really love that. So again, people, if you're using Chachapiti, you can still use chat.

But if you have your notes, like create a template where you just need to copy paste your notes, where basically, you get the same amount of shit done, but more in a personal way.

[Melanie] (7:13 - 7:35)

Totally. That's such a good point. Because this definitely takes longer customizing is, is always going to take longer than sending out the same cut and paste, blah, basic email to all your clients.

But yeah, if you have a couple of templates built out, so I had a template built out for these goals, a template built out for these goals, and then still customize it a little bit. But yeah, it'll just make things go by.

[Stino] (7:35 - 8:05)

I've developed a template like a prompt. And then I just copy paste the notes of our last meeting and be like, create a check in email. So yeah, that's the best way to go.

No, but that's honest. I just thought that I love because indeed, like we're crying shit out. And we're not talking about sometimes the customer just responds with like, what is the value that you're bringing me and in that sense, it also makes you doubt yourself in a way where you're like, Oh, fuck, did I drop the ball?

So in that sense?

[Melanie] (8:06 - 8:19)

Relatable, especially when you're trying to handle so many other things to like the emails are really important. And that's kind of a, like signal that time to change things up a bit. Because customers letting you know you suck.

[Stino] (8:23 - 9:40)

No one. Well, the thing is, there is also something at the other side of the table, right? The too much personalization.

Like, people already know me that I love to like really build relationships with my customers, but like on a personal level as well. So I love to like add them on LinkedIn, stuff like that. And the weird thing is, well, not a weird thing, but you try to be as attentive as possible, whether they share something about their job or their personal life, but you don't want to come across stalkerish, right?

Because what I've done was that like, because I was a stalker. No, no, I was not. Well, I could be.

No, but I, no, but the thing was medium, medium level stalker, right? But the thing is what I've done is that I was like, I had this one customer that I followed on LinkedIn and I saw that they had a birthday party and they shared it, stuff like that. And there was a call where I was like, okay, we're vibing, we're vibing.

And I was like, how did the cupcakes taste on the party? And she was like, the fuck?

[Melanie] (9:43 - 9:43)

Were you there?

[Stino] (9:44 - 11:08)

She was so distraught. Like she was literally looking at me like, how the fuck do you know? And I was like, yeah, LinkedIn.

And then the entire meeting went super awkward. Like you can go into too much, much personalization, right? Where you're like, again, and I am a strong believer that you need to like add your champions onto LinkedIn because it's a good one for the company's brand, your brand and be aware of all those changes.

But keep those changes on the page. Like, hey, if you see a new milestone, react to the milestone and just then already, if you want to do something, be like, hey, we're sending something your way to celebrate this, but like, keep it on there maybe until they begin it on themselves as well. In the beginning as well, like I know I was aware of when people like school started and stuff.

So I would always start an email like, I hope the first day of school is going good for your kids. Well, the thing is, I will still keep using it, but just know the audience in front of you, because some people think it's weird. Some people, it's like, it's a fine line, right?

Between like being authentic and being aware of those things and being like, just round out fucking Jeffrey Dahmer creepy. Like this is, this is a line that you don't need, that you don't want to cross basically.

[Melanie] (11:10 - 11:19)

At the same time, if she's posting about her cupcakes and her birthday on LinkedIn, I know, right? Kind of got to expect someone's going to say something.

[Stino] (11:19 - 11:23)

But the thing was, I think the cupcakes were just on a small platter in the corner of the picture.

[Melanie] (11:24 - 11:29)

So that's what you narrowed in on.

[Stino] (11:29 - 13:14)

Back when I was a foodie, I was like, cupcakes? What are those cupcakes? Yeah, I have a lot of fuck ups, right?

Like I have also the fuck ups of, yeah, again, being too personal and getting no reaction at all. Because I know we talked about it in a previous episode as well, like the fine line between having a relationship with your customers still needs to be healthy as well. And I know that I always keep like making the analogy of being in a relationship with your customers, but that's, it's actually being in a relationship, right?

Like in a relationship, you need to also give the room to grow, but be attentive, leave them alone, but be aware. So it's like this fine line to make them feel seen. And also in your communication, always go for the business first, like start with something small talk, like the weather, the under boob sweat, everything, and then go into the business goals.

And then at the end, go for the things. Because then I shifted my strategy at the end to like, okay, is there something else that you want to talk about? And then close down also with a lot of small talk, like, hey, I saw the post on LinkedIn, how are those cupcakes, stuff like that.

That's an entire new narrative, right? With personalization. So there is something that you can go too far as a personalization.

You don't want to invade the personal space. Even if you saw it on LinkedIn, business is always still first. But I do believe that you have some need to have personalization because in your fuck up, it's maybe done too little.

But in my fuck ups, it's way, way too much.

[Melanie] (13:16 - 13:29)

Yeah. And interesting that that set the tone for the call for you. Like if you watched that call, kind of like lose it and go downhill after that.

And that's the last thing you want, right? That's not productive. And how are you going to get it back again?

How are you going to get it?

[Stino] (13:29 - 13:32)

I needed to transfer CSMs because we felt so awkward.

[Melanie] (13:35 - 13:36)

Yeah. No, that's the worst.

[Stino] (13:36 - 14:43)

That is the worst, but it can happen. I don't want to walk around the subject. It can happen.

You can be authentically yourself, but also fuck up. And I know in the end, it wasn't that big of a fuck up, right? But it is something that it's maybe small, but has a large impact on someone.

And that is something that you... So if you would communicate, always do it as short as possible and do small talk, but in an email, be like, Hey, I hope you had a nice start of your week, of your day. Like how was the weekend?

Like those generic stuff. And then go directly into the business. Like give some actionables, right?

Like you said as well, like these are notes, these are the concerns, this is a feature. And then add a BS double point and be like, Hey, I saw this on LinkedIn. Like how are the cupcakes?

Like you basically sandwich it between like small talk, personalization, business, small talk. And I think that is the best way to go about it because otherwise you are indeed not gaining any reaction or people are looking at you like you're the biggest serial killer that ever roams this planet.

[Melanie] (14:49 - 14:50)

We do not want that.

[Stino] (14:50 - 14:56)

Do you have other fuck ups that come to mind where you're like, this is not good?

[Melanie] (14:57 - 16:02)

Well, you know, I had another one where I was thinking, like, I don't know how you approach this, but in the past for clients that I've been trying to get on calls numerous times, and they just don't respond, they don't book calls. It's just impossible to get them on a call. I decided to just offer them a gift card.

But that also didn't go over well. I had somebody say, you know, and this was personalized, I knew that they like Starbucks coffee, I didn't just offer it out of the blue. So I offered a Starbucks card for them to get on a call with me.

And he responded back that even he didn't have time, even that wasn't enough to get him on a call. He was just too busy, didn't want to have a call. And even Starbucks wasn't tempting enough.

So even in that way, like you can still personalize, I know that he likes coffee, it comes to all the calls with coffee. But even that type of offer is sometimes like overly personalized, and still not enough. Like there still wasn't enough value there for him to clear his schedule and make 15 or 20 minutes to get on a call.

[Stino] (16:02 - 17:46)

But the thing is, I think at the end of the day, we're still all human, right? So personalization can take you that much. But it's like the other person needs to do the effort as well.

Like this is not a one sided relationship. Though I do love the fact that you are like, hey, grab a coffee on my expense, and let's hop on a call. Like it's never ask, hey, here's $5.

If you hop on a call, like we discussed before, it's this entire personalization. Hey, grab a coffee. I know you like it.

Drink it while we're on the call. This is the nice personalization. But again, it's a two way street.

And I think it's the most frustrating. In all honesty, I didn't also find the golden nugget just yet. It's like people respond to email sometimes, but then don't have the ability to jump on a call.

I think what's up with that? They send you emails with questions, but then you respond in a personalized way and be like, hey, can we jump on a call to discuss this, this and this further and you never respond anymore. Like, don't beat yourself too much up about it.

It's a two way relationship. You know, that if you do personalization, if even 20% of all the emails gets answered, you've done a good job. You've been authentically yourself.

And that is all that matters. It's still a two way street. You can't beat yourself up too much about it if it doesn't work.

So basically, they're rude. Like if you don't have five minutes on how we can accelerate your business even more, you're not a good person. I mean, you're not a good manager, or something like that.

If at our side, everything runs well, and they don't take the bite or bait or like, that's on them. It's not on us.

[Melanie] (17:46 - 17:59)

This is really one of the hardest parts of being a CSM for me is figuring out like, how do I get people on a call? Or how do I get them to expand without being on a call? I hope I'm not the only one that feels this way and that there's other CSM stuff.

[Stino] (17:59 - 18:06)

I think that's the external struggle if you're having a book of business that you can't visit.

[Melanie] (18:07 - 18:08)

Yes.

[Stino] (18:08 - 19:23)

Like there is so much or that you can just pick up the phone and call. Like we've been in such a world, especially the last three years, where everything happens remote and on a meeting. People are tired of meetings.

We just want to take the car, go to the client on site, have like 30 minutes, make it part of their routine. We're tired. We just want to pick up the phone and call, give them a quick call.

Why does everything need to happen over a meeting? People are tired of this shit. Even I'm tired of this shit.

I don't want to do online calls day in day out to personalize. And I know it's the way to go. But come on, can't we go back sometimes to that easy where we can just like ring up the client and be like, hey, do you have five minutes?

No, you can call back in an hour. Call back in an hour. Like getting shit done the old-fashioned way, right?

Like people are like tired of sitting on calls all the fucking time. We're not the only software provider. So in that sense, if you're beating yourself up, it's totally fine because we are all tired.

We're all like, how, let me ask you that question. Are you feeling energized to get on calls every time?

[Melanie] (19:24 - 19:50)

I was just going to actually say, I'm not super excited either to get on these calls and try and chat through what we're missing or like how we can get you there. Let's talk about that, the goals, the success plan, all the things that we've previously discussed. Why aren't we getting there?

I'm not super excited to have those calls either. So I think that's something I need to do more, picking up the phone and making a phone call instead of just like trying to figure out creative ways to get people on a Zoom.

[Stino] (19:50 - 20:00)

Let me ask you this, like the thing is we are CSMs of our customers, right? But you use tools as well. How often do you jump or reply to an email of your CSM?

[Melanie] (20:01 - 20:02)

That's true.

[Stino] (20:02 - 20:49)

In all honesty, I reply zero to never. Because again, I can't be arsed to sit on a call, just call me. So we need to find a way where we can bring back a little bit the old-fashionedness, I think.

Maybe we just crack the code on this episode, find a way to personalize, but the old-fashioned way. People are sick and tired, I think, about getting emails. Do you have five minutes for this?

Do you have five minutes for that? It's easier to just like grab the phone. And this is something that you can easily establish in the beginning of a kickoff, like how do you want to get communicated?

I think we often get just run down and like, oh, we will discuss it on another call, or I will send you an email. Why not record a video, send a video over, watch these five minutes on your own account, and let me know what you think.

[Melanie] (20:50 - 21:03)

That's what I've been doing a lot more of, is videos. And they can go back to at any time. But interesting that you said that about just picking up the phone.

I'm actually going to try that. I'm going to do an experiment and see what happens.

[Stino] (21:04 - 21:05)

Yeah, report back. Report back to base.

[Melanie] (21:06 - 21:25)

I have a very large book of business, and I sent each client a survey, and it only had four questions. And one of the questions was, how do you want me to communicate with you? And a one-on-one meeting was the sort of first option that they could choose.

And zero of my clients chose that. They all want a lunch and learn, or a webinar.

[Stino] (21:25 - 21:41)

People are often so stuck in calls, they can't be bothered. We need to do better. Because again, if you look at yourself, if you're in your interactions with your own customer success managers of tools that you use, we don't do it either.

[Melanie] (21:42 - 21:43)

Experiment begins.

[Stino] (21:44 - 21:55)

No, let's find a way all together where we can, in an old-fashioned way, in an efficient way, create value without the need of jumping on a call. That's a good one.

[Melanie] (21:57 - 21:59)

So let's make this a challenge.

[Stino] (21:59 - 22:03)

Yes, I'm always there. What's the challenge, Melanie? Give me the challenge.

[Melanie] (22:03 - 22:19)

Let's do it. Well, okay, I've got over 200 customers. So I'm going to reach out to a percentage of my customers by phone and see if I can get a short conversation with them instead of requesting a meeting.

This is going to be my challenge. I'm going to say 20% of my customers.

[Stino] (22:19 - 23:00)

I will first hand down and make a list of phone numbers and do that as well. The thing is, if people are like, I'm shit scary to do the phone, you've been in a meeting. Okay, you can prep, just call.

And if not call, that's the thing though. You're here to drive value. That's the most personal that you can get.

Just bring them up and be like, hey, do you have time to talk? Five minutes of your time. Just wanted to check in.

This is what we're going for. Then get anything back. Is everything okay?

Depending on where you're at right now, don't do a kickoff over the phone, but just keep those Zoom meetings for the major things, right?

[Melanie] (23:01 - 23:15)

Yes, I totally agree. Or you could even use that call if you don't have something scheduled, like your quarterly QBR or your next call. You could even use that call just to say, okay, can we just put some time on the calendar for a couple months out from now?

We'll revisit what we're talking about right now.

[Stino] (23:15 - 23:22)

100%. We're onto something. We're on.

I think we've done it. We've cracked the code using our own fuck-ups.

[Melanie] (23:25 - 23:27)

This is the first time ever, do you know?

[Stino] (23:28 - 23:46)

We need an award. Well, not saying that it will work though, but I think talking and rambling and throwing this tantrum of like, we're sick and tired of meetings. Maybe there is even a SaaS solution for it.

Maybe we just invented our own startup. Maybe. Oh my gosh.

[Melanie] (23:48 - 23:54)

Love it. I'm too busy to think about even starting a company. Forget it.

[Stino] (23:54 - 24:12)

We'll let someone else do that. I don't have it in my life for me, but if someone invents something using this idea, hire us. We would be the best CSMs that you will ever get.

It will be CCO1 and CCO2. We will be there. Give us the money.

We will give you the knowledge.

[Melanie] (24:13 - 24:14)

We're there.

[Stino] (24:15 - 24:38)

But I love it. We're at the end of this unhinged episode again, where we started from too little personalization to go full Jeffrey Thummer vibes into find ways to personalize that doesn't include an email or another invite to a Zoom call. Is there anything else that you want to add, my sweet, sweet Melanie?

[Melanie] (24:39 - 24:44)

Challenge accepted. On our next day that we record, I'm going to have some numbers for you.

[Stino] (24:44 - 24:48)

You're going to have some numbers for me? I'll let you know how this worked. Okay.

Awesome. I will check it as well.

[Melanie] (24:49 - 24:50)

I'm going to start the experiment.

[Stino] (24:53 - 25:46)

Oh God. Jesus. It's the heat and it's already the third episode that I've been recording in such heat.

The first one of the new Lifetime Value Media was already a hot one. The second one is a hot one and this one is just unhinged. This made me lose three pounds in sweat alone.

It's all the boobs sweat. I'm flat now. This is whoop, gone.

By the way, I received a case yesterday of Alex Turkovic. I've been on this diet plan, not diet, but healthy lifestyle for the last five, six weeks. Yesterday I got a package in the mail from Alex Turkovic, which I adore.

I opened the package and I kid you not, seven bottles of Chick-fil-A sauce. Seven freaking bottles of Chick-fil-A sauce.

[Melanie] (25:46 - 25:48)

Oh, he knows you so well.

[Stino] (25:49 - 26:15)

Goodbye boobs and hello boobs. So yeah, so that was the thing. I'm working though.

I'm working on that posture. The heat and the bottles of Chick-fil-A sauce are not here for it. Anyway, that was maybe again too much personalizations for our listeners of the We Fucked Up So You Don't Have to show.

We're more than happy to catch you in another episode with less boob sweat and more fuck ups. We love you and talk to you soon. Bye-bye.

[Melanie] (26:16 - 26:17)

See you next time.