#WFU Episode 8:

In this episode, we help you remember that no two customers, and no two trainee, are the same:

00:00:00 - The Facebook moms generation

00:01:18 - Defining change management challenges

00:02:45 - The pitfalls of lacking product expertise

00:05:41 - Navigating difficult customer onboarding

00:11:54 - Tailoring training to different generations

00:13:36 - Gen Z’s confidence backfires in onboarding

00:16:18 - Tips for managing successful product adoption

00:20:32 - Don’t be afraid to ask the tough questions

00:21:38 - Pro tip: just ask why

And hey, we want to hear from you! What topics do you want us to tackle next? Reach out and let us know. Remember, we’re here to share how We Fucked Up So You Don’t Have To.

Reach out to Melanie: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melanie-faye/

Reach out to Stino: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stijn-smet-%F0%9F%90%B3-330435a9/

[Stino] (0:00 - 0:26)

We all know them, they call you on your cell phone and they ask you to come by and ask them to install an app. You know them, like those people that post a GIF or a picture every day. Good morning sunshine, like a very weird picture of a cat and a flower that's like, don't lose track of that generation as well.

That generation is still well aware of everything that is happening within the world and is still working.

[Voiceover] (0:27 - 1:12)

Welcome to another exciting episode of We Fucked Up So You Don't Have To. Get ready to dive into the wild world of customer success with your hosts, Stino and Melanie. Join them as they peel back the curtain on their own mishaps and triumphs, sharing candid insights and practical advice along the way.

Stino, a charismatic head of customer success, brings his unfiltered wisdom to the table, while Melanie, the seasoned customer success manager, offers invaluable career insights. Together, they'll laugh, learn and navigate the twists and turns of the customer success journey. So buckle up and let's dive in.

[Melanie] (1:18 - 1:38)

Hello, everyone. Welcome to the latest episode of We Fucked Up So You Don't Have To. I'm here with my co-host Stino, and today we're going to be talking about the perplexing topic of change management and how we fucked up by not really understanding what the hell that is.

[Stino] (1:38 - 2:42)

What is it, actually? What is change management? I think there is no such a thing that you can boil it down to a definition.

I think it means something else for everyone else. I think we're going to delve into our fuck-ups because even though where I thought I had change management down to the core, it's basically you need to change your change management constantly. So it's like the change management is constantly controlled and done by change.

And that is the weirdest shit. That is the hardest mindfuck. There isn't one definition of change management that you can say like, hey, this is how we need to do.

It's the same as CS, right? We all have the tools in our toolbox, but we don't necessarily need to apply them in the same way. And I think it comes the same to change management.

So in that sense, let's dive into it. Let's like battle it out in the fuck-ups of change management. I will let you do the honors.

[Melanie] (2:42 - 2:44)

Oh, you want me to go first? Okay.

[Stino] (2:45 - 2:48)

Yeah. Do the fuck-up of the day, Mallory. The fuck-up of the day.

[Melanie] (2:49 - 3:19)

Okay. Well, when I think about change management, I think about not fully understanding your product, not being enough of a product expert to relay to your client or your customer how they can make these big impacts in their business by fully utilizing your product. And then the other thing is not understanding how to work with your customer to help affect that change in the organization.

[Stino] (3:19 - 3:21)

Yeah. Yeah.

[Melanie] (3:21 - 5:39)

Well, I had a customer that I was onboarding. And so we went through the regular onboarding process. We did the onboarding call, the kickoff call.

We had an implementation call where we talked about next steps and everything looked good and sounded good, like on paper. In my notes, it was perfect. It was going to go really well.

And they had 12 users that were all coming on board at the same time. So we decided, okay, the best way to tackle this is just to have a couple of team training sessions and then have an implementation call bi-weekly to kind of get everybody on the same page, make sure they were all using it. And so the training sessions went really well.

It seemed like everybody understood what the software was and how they were going to use it. But then I started noticing on our bi-weekly implementation calls, when I looked at their usage, nothing was changing. No one was logging in.

The champion was not logging in. They didn't know what to do next. So I was spending all of this time training them thinking, you know, if I train them on the software, then they're just going to know how to start using it.

But what I didn't really think about was, okay, I can't just train them on the software. I have to train them on these are your current practices. Here is how you can do things a little bit differently with our software.

And this is going to make these types of changes in the business. So it would have been a great place to pause and think about like, okay, let's implement a success plan and just knock out these goals and then start talking about how are we going to reach them? What are the milestones?

Who is going to be tackling those milestones? And I really should have done that looking back in hindsight, that would have saved that account. Because I just watched week after week, it didn't matter what I did, like trying to, you know, just train them and make them understand the product was not enough.

And eventually they did churn. But that was after more than 10 hours spent with this team. Like it was just I totally fucked up with them.

And so looking back, there were so many things that I should have done differently. And now that I see it, now that I look back on it, I'm like, okay, that's change management. That's where I fucked up.

I didn't do it. I didn't know what it was. And now I know.

[Stino] (5:41 - 11:53)

Yeah, no 100% because I do love like for us as I love where you started always like the product experts thing like indeed, we need to be a product expert. But that's also like a pitfall. Because we work or we train people in the product that often that we become product experts ourself.

But for us, it's easy, but it's not necessarily easy for someone else. So in that sense, I completely understand because we come from a place like, hey, it's easy. It's easy to understand.

And it's easy to use it. It's like super user friendly, like you do X, Y, and Z. And then they go off on your way like 100%.

It's super easy to leave that change management behind. Yeah, in that sense. Yeah, no, completely agree.

And my fuck up story is like, a little bit around the same area, where you basically forget that there is a person sitting in front of you because you have all this enthusiasm. And it often happens in your morning because you're like, yeah, you have a new tool. And it's super easy to use.

Let's do this and hyping them up. So you completely lose track on who is sitting in front of me. And that links back to where I first started.

Everyone is different in change management. Some people work 5, 10, 15 years in a particular way before going for your solution, before going in your product. So even if the decision maker, even if the champion are super IT tech minded, there will always be a part of the team that is risk averse.

Like I call them the pre-World War generation. Like, you know, we all know them. They call you on your cell phone, and they ask you to come by and ask them to install an app or anything.

I also call them the generation of the Facebook moms. You know them like those people that post a GIF or a picture like every day. I'll be like, good morning, sunshine.

Like a very weird picture of a cat and a flower. That's like that generation. Like don't lose track of that generation as well.

That generation is still well aware of everything that is happening within the world and is still working as well. We know Gen Z is coming up, but we can't forget about our dear and beloved workers that already are working 10, 15, 20 years on the same way. So that was where my story links to, where I was like, fresh CSM, fresh cuts, went for everything.

I was like, let's do this. And I gave a training. I was like, this is super easy.

And this is super easy. And that is super easy and done. Go on your way.

And like, literally people were staring at me like, what the fuck did I watch for the last 45 minutes? Like, this is not easy. This will take me some time to get used to.

Like, this is not saving me any time nor gaining me efficiency doing it this way. So I will keep having it on the old way. And I was like, no, let's do the training all over again.

And did the exact same training until the point where at the end, she just started yelling at me. She was like, you don't get it. This is freaking hard for me.

And then she almost started to cry. Because I let her feel and well, it was not my intention, but I completely can relate to it. I made her feel that she was dumb because she couldn't hop on the latest trends.

And I was like, this is not my intention. But this also clearly made me realize that I need to alter trainings or need to alter conversations in a way that is on the level of the person standing in front of me or in a training session. So I always ask a friend now like, hey, like, how is the team?

Like, are there any IT-averse, tech-averse people? We can do a separate track for them. Because it also works vice versa, right?

If you do that very IT-averse training where you have like 80% of the room is like very IT-minded, it also works like the different way because they think is it like that hard because a risk-averse, an IT-averse training is more than it looks a little bit more that it's a heavy job. Because in that sense, you're like, let's start with task one. And then we go to task two, which is not necessarily bad.

But IT-minded people are like, okay, let's fucking go. So in that sense, I clearly realized that change management, again, is often very personal. You need to be aware and you need to be empathetic to really make sure that you understand the person standing in front of you.

And you can always start with the two stereotypes that I've just explained. Like the, I'm not going to age discriminate, but like the Gen Z generation that is like super quick, stick tucking their ass off and give them any tool and they can work with it. Now you have the boomers who I truly love.

I like boomers, if you're listening in, I adore you. Let's be honest, you're not very quick on the IT trends, like the majority of you. So in that sense, if you already have those two in mind, I mean like people actually working 10, 15, 20 years, you're taking away their way of working for the last five to 10 to 20 years.

So keep that in mind. You're just a CSM having you train them means that you're just disrupting their work environment. And I think a lot of the times we forget about that because we're very energized, we're very empathetic and be like, okay, we have a new tool, we need to create value.

But you aren't reaching that value if you're not covering 100% of the employee base of your customer.

[Melanie] (11:54 - 13:20)

And to your point about the older generation, that's why I always ask who is going to be championing this product, like who's going to work on the setup, who's going to work on the implementation? Because if it, I think it's ideal for them to have someone who can kind of jump in and take over if they're struggling, if they're just not getting it. And if they're implementing the software for a team to try and make workflow easier for the team, or so that they can have insights and visibility, maybe they're not the one that needs to be setting it up.

Maybe they do need to be handing it off to someone else who can pick it up really quickly, implement it, start to roll it out with you and across the team at the same time. That's one of the questions I always ask now in every onboarding that I do, who's going to be working with me to implement this because, and sometimes I will, you know, just if I see them struggling, onboarding where the customer thought I was going to call them like on the phone and do the onboarding over the phone, like they were just, oh, we finally got them on to zoom, they couldn't figure out how to turn their camera on, they couldn't get their mic on, like, it was so bad, that I just said, okay, who else can jump in here, let's get them on zoom and have them kind of take over. And that's what we did.

And they're so successful with the product, because they let someone else come in and run it for them. And they use it for what they need to do. But the rest of the team is in there and actually utilizing it on a day to day basis.

[Stino] (13:21 - 13:35)

There you go. Change management, again, has a lot to do with like the person sitting in front of you. And I do love that you brought someone else in when it comes to that.

So talking about boomers and Gen Zers, do we have another fuck up of your sleeve?

[Melanie] (13:36 - 13:37)

Another one.

[Stino] (13:37 - 13:38)

Do we have another one?

[Melanie] (13:38 - 14:40)

Well, actually, I have another one about a Gen Z who, okay, so I got him on the onboarding, and he was like, great, I know how to use this. I pretty much don't even need to be here. Just like, give me my login, let me start my trial and, and see you later kind of thing.

Like he was not interested in talking to me. He thought he knew exactly what he was doing. And it was really hard.

I actually was so confident in him as well that I did not book my next call with him while I was on the onboarding call. And that was a huge fuck up because I have never gotten him back again. Like that that's in my current role.

And to this day, he's out there kind of using it half assed, but you know, not anywhere where he should be based on like, you know, the discovery and the goals that we talked about in his onboarding, he should have like huge usage and he doesn't he there's obviously a disconnect somewhere where he's just not seeing a whole lot of value. But my mistake was trusting that he really knew what he was doing, that he could just fly through this onboarding and start to see the value right away. And that didn't happen.

[Stino] (14:41 - 15:37)

Yeah, that is indeed the other side. Yeah, the other side of it where we're like, Oh, you got it. No, same.

I think that change management is indeed a beast that you need to tackle everywhere that you go. And always stick true to your guns into your process. I think if you see, oh, this person has it, there should always be like, again, if you're in a relationship with Prince Charming, you're like, hmm, there should be some daddy or mommy issues in there.

Like no one is perfect. So indeed, like if a Gen Z is sitting in front of you, and he's like, yeah, I got it. Like I know everything.

They don't. It's a new tool. It's a new way of working.

Every tool has its own jobs to be done. It's a methodology. There is no one sitting in front of you that knows the product better than you do.

[Melanie] (15:37 - 15:38)

Yes.

[Stino] (15:38 - 16:17)

So even if they give you the impression like I got this, they don't. Yes. Well, maybe they do.

But stick to your guns, having that follow up call, check the metrics, check the health scores, and make sure that like, okay, even if he does need that bi-weekly call, set it up, and then cancel it every time you're like, okay, there is nothing to discuss. If it happens to three times, boil it down to a monthly call, and then just rephrase it and be like, hey, this is where we update on new features, for example. So change management is 100% dependent on the person or a group of persons sitting in front of you.

[Melanie] (16:17 - 16:17)

Yes.

[Stino] (16:18 - 16:26)

You have those small things. Do you have other like tips and tricks? Because I did love the tip and trick where you're like, I asked the people, like who is championing?

[Melanie] (16:26 - 16:26)

Yeah.

[Stino] (16:27 - 16:37)

Like in a later stage where it's like more adoption, you need to do like QPRs or new feature adoption. Let's go into that. How do you handle that?

[Melanie] (16:37 - 18:11)

One thing that I do with larger teams that I saw another client, another customer that I work with rolled us out amongst their team. And so now it's kind of like part of my strategy with the larger teams that I work with is to have KPIs for those team members. I'm not coming up with those KPIs.

They're coming up with like usage KPIs. And I have one client that rolled usage KPIs for each of the team members into their quarterly bonus. So if they were not using the software to the point where they needed to be to do their job and to be able to come to a weekly meeting and speak to how they're using it, that affected their bonus.

And so that is something that I bring up from time to time with customers that I see who are kind of worried about like that some team members are adopting it, some aren't, then I just kind of help them implement strategies that I've seen other clients have success with. And that's really key. Like once you've been in the role long enough, I think that comes more naturally, right?

Like once you're more of an industry expert and a product expert, and you have these kind of tools in your back pocket to be able to pull out on calls, I think that makes a huge difference. When you're new, like when you're new to an industry, when you're new to a software, when you're new to the type of clients that you're working with, that can make your role as a CSM so much harder. I think it all starts to come more naturally when you have experiencing confidence to speak to how others are using the product and where you're having success there, and then kind of help them strategize about what you can do with them moving forward.

[Stino] (18:12 - 20:32)

Well, 100% indeed, like the first couple of times, if you're listening into this episode, and you're just starting out, the beginning can be fairly rough, you will make mistakes, maybe not the fuck ups that we have done, but you're not in a place yet to propose maybe some different things. It's indeed like experience what works with a customer, what doesn't. If it doesn't work, it doesn't mean it fails completely.

Try it with another customer, iterate on it, because not every customer is the same, not every industry is the same. If you work for a product that literally caters to various industries, various professions, that means that not every change management strategy is maybe working for profession X, but it's working for profession Y. Also, you're not a bad CSM, see what I did there?

You're not a bad CSM if you try some stuff and you fall flat on your face, because that's normal, because you do it from the goodness of your heart, you try it, it fails. It doesn't matter, like try it again with another customer. It's all about who is sitting in front of you.

Change management, again, is not one fits all, just like customer success is not one fits all. I'm very passionate. Let no one in your corner tell you that you're a bad CSM because you're doing change management in various ways.

Again, there is no one size fits all. So if you're listening in, there is no nuggets that we can give you like this is the best way. The only way is like really trying to read who is sitting in front of you.

Always go out from the worst and then work towards that consensus as you're working with your client along the way tailor your change management. And if you're reading another post telling you otherwise and telling you that you're a bad CSM, tag me and Melanie and we will rush that guy or girl up that is telling you that you are bad CSM. Like we can fight, I can give the meanest bitch slap that you will ever see in your life.

Can you walk us through what people need to take away from this episode?

[Melanie] (20:32 - 21:38)

Okay, key takeaways. Think about change management based on who you're talking to. Meet them where they're at.

Implement a success plan. Even if it's not formal, talk about it, note it, make sure that it's clear on all sides what you need to be doing what your champion needs to be doing for success for themselves and for their team. Have the champion fully understand the product and the software so that they can work with you on being the internal champion as well as your champion to help the team understand and start utilizing it.

Know your industry, know your software, become a product expert so that you can share tips and strategies that you've seen other clients have success with. Just try different things with different clients and don't give up. If you are having struggles with one client, it doesn't mean it's going to be the exact same way with another client.

Like Stino says, it's not one size fits all. Everybody's different. And so I think the more transparent you are with the client and give them a space to let you know what's working and what's not working, and then tailor it from there.

[Stino] (21:38 - 22:39)

And the one thing that I forgot to mention, if someone is very reluctant to change, just ask them why. Don't make any assumptions. If you feel the frustration, just sit them down and have a conversation beyond the product.

Be honest and be like, hey, I have the feeling that you're very reluctant. Why is that? Try to understand their needs and then tailor it from there.

Maybe it's just a security issue, the way something looks, or they're scared that their work is going to be replaced. It's also your job to make sure that doesn't happen. That is often of times like, I'm not using that because that means if everything goes smoother, they need less people.

Have that conversation. Sometimes the conversation is like, come on, guys. It's just to help you.

It's not necessarily to get rid of you. So also there, don't be afraid to have that conversation where you feel that that person is very reluctant to the change that is happening within the company. And have that conversation.

[Melanie] (22:40 - 23:05)

I want to say something about that very quickly. Something that I hear on a regular basis, especially do you work with clients that have tried multiple softwares before yours, and the team has seen it fail, or they hated it, or now they're at this point where they're trying to implement your software, and it's like an eye roll. Nobody's interested.

They've seen it, they've tried too many other things, and why is this one going to be a success, right?

[Stino] (23:06 - 23:41)

Yeah. And also because it's maybe even not if it's a failed one, even if the previous ones are successful, if you're just the next tool that's going to be rolled out, people are going to roll their eyes, especially now. Especially since COVID, we have a tool literally for everything.

So also their change management isn't as it was when I started out eight years ago. Now literally, I guess we have a tool for everything. That amplifies the eye rolls, even if it's a successful launch.

I'm sick of it as well.

[Melanie] (23:41 - 23:46)

Yeah, from that perspective too, where it's like, yeah, why is this one going to be any different?

[Stino] (23:47 - 24:41)

Yeah, but what isn't any different is this episode of the We Fucked Up that you don't have to show. And neither is the next episode that you're going to listen to. Guys, thank you so much for listening in for yet another episode.

We're so thankful that we have this loyal, dare I say, fan base that keeps listening in every week. You can find us at your local mall handing out signatures. If you want to have your t-shirt signed, we're signing.

Thank you so much for everyone listening in. We have seen the lovely comments, the lovely interactions on our LinkedIn posts. Thank you for keeping us honest.

Thank you for keeping us authentic because it's because of you that we want to share the knowledge. And before I burst into tears again, thank you so much for listening in. I'm curious.

Bye-bye.

[Melanie] (24:41 - 24:41)

Bye.